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Old Posted 09-03-2008, 08:51 PM
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Default A high gloss finishing question

I have a finishing question that I need help with. So I am taking off my mentor’s hat and asking for advice here.

I am quoting a living room set that will have a large credenza and coffee table as part of the ensemble. Both pieces will be 100% veneered in shop sawn, quartered wenge, so there will be no end grain and none of wenge’s wilder cathedral grain patterns to contend with.

The designer saw one of my earlier wenge pieces and loved the deep, “black coffee” brown coloring. When I told her that wenge can/will lighten with age and exposure, she said that would be absolutely unacceptable. She wants it to stay dark, and she wants a very high gloss lacquer finish on both pieces.

So, my question is…… What would be the best way to dye/stain the wenge veneer to hold its dark color, AND fill its very open pored grain in preparation for a high gloss, sprayed lacquer finish?

I'm afraid if I dye or stain first and then fill the grain, I will disturb the dye when trying to sand the filler back. If I fill the grain first, I'm worried that the dye/stain won't take evenly. I'm also concerned about using urethane based fillers, like Bartleys, or glazes and gells under a high gloss lacquer finish.

Thanks for your help,
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Old Posted 09-05-2008, 12:19 PM in reply to John Fry's post "A high gloss finishing question"
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I feel for you John, and for every woodworker who's customer doesn't embrace the standard disclosure, "Wood is a natural material with natural variations in color, that changes over time."

Wenge will work to your benefit in this case, I think, because most people don't see a lot of coloration or grain figure in wenge. It's there, but you have to examine it more closely than most consumers would to notice. So, being a bit heavy-handed with coloring it isn't going to make a difference to the customer, probably. If your customer is different in this regard, let's kick that part around a little.

My initial inclination is to suggest two test pieces. I'd feel better presenting you with a single choice but these two methods will look different, in a way that is difficult to describe. On a high-end piece like this obviously will be, with a challenging finish, I would always (always!) recommend a test piece for approval from the customer.

My proposal is testing these two schedules:

Schedule 1) Color veneer desired black/brown with pigment stain. You can color just slightly lighter than the final color, adding the filler and topcoat will darken slightly. Fill grain with a low viscosity epoxy made for finishing. System 3's product is called "Clear Coat". I'm sure other companies made similar products if you have a vendor you prefer. What you're looking for is water whiteness and low viscosity. Typical bar-top epoxy is far too thick to work in this application, it won't flow into the pores well. Please clear with the epoxy manufacturer the specific lacquer you'll be using as topcoat. In general, lacquer will go over epoxy but it's always safest to check. Be careful if your finishing room is hot, epoxy heat-cures and using it in a hot environment may cause it to start curing while still in the container. If it begins to stiffen up, you should not use it. The most common cause of failure in epoxy finishing is failing to completely mix the resin and hardener. Be certain the two parts are completely mixed before application. Either of the parts that aren't mixed together will never harden and will have to be removed and fresh epoxy applied.

Schedule 2) Color an oil-based filler just a hair darker than the desired final color. Either universal tints or artists oils are excellent for coloring filler. Smear a thin coat on a scrap and allow to dry to check the color. Fill grain and allow to dry well. Scrape/sand back to flat, reapply if needed. The filling is completed when the stock is dead flat, and the pore filler is very distinct from raw wood. Then, color overall with stain that's just lighter than the filler. It will hold on the wood, and be resisted by the filler. Allow the whole assembly to cure well, then apply topcoat. Most anything oil-based is compatible with lacquer, if allowed to cure fully.

If you choose schedule 2, saw your veneer just a little thicker to accomodate removing a bit of stock when you sand back the filler.

On this job, I recommend against using any dye, go instead for an all-pigment solution. All dyes fade, and this designer seems to not be too big on that idea. Pigment only stains are hard to find any more, one that I really like is Woodburst, http://www.woodburst.com/index.asp . This is an extremely finely-ground pigment in a tung-based carrier. Another option is to use high quality artist's oils, like Winson & Newton "Artists' Oil Color" line. They do, however, dry very slowly.

A concern was raised amonst the mentors regarding these schedules on large pieces. Aside from the epoxy caution mentioned earlier, these products will all behave similarly in time to ordinary oil-based varnishes, or even be a little more forgiving. You obviously don't want to kick off for lunch in the middle, but working at a normal pace should be all that's required.
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Old Posted 09-05-2008, 07:10 PM in reply to Dave Arbuckle's post starting "I feel for you John, and for every..."
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Thank you Dave,

This is great information and exactly what I was looking for.

Because I've never used it as a "finish", epoxy never even came to mind. These are big pieces and the credenza would probably be easier due to the fact that it is mostly a flat and smooth box. The coffee table has quite a bit of "shape" with reveals and surface changes, plus a shelf below. this could prove to be more difficult.

How is the epoxy coat applied...Brush?

I will definitely try both procedures on test material first, but I am thinking that #2 will probably be the best way for me to do this.

You said..."Most anything oil-based is compatible with lacquer, if allowed to cure fully." ...Does this include urethane based products too?

Thanks again Dave, for all your effort, and everyone's thoughts and input on this.
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Last edited by John Fry; 09-05-2008 at 09:40 PM.
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Old Posted 09-06-2008, 01:31 AM in reply to John Fry's post starting "Thank you Dave, This is great..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Fry View Post
How is the epoxy coat applied...Brush?
Yes. These thin epoxies apply very much like varnish. Exceptions are that you have to mix them, they have a short pot life, and you want to put your good brushes away and use a (reasonable quality) throw-away.

Getting the epoxy to flow into the grain is a lot easier if you have gravity on your side. If you want to try it and the coffee table doesn't lend itself to being maneuvered like that, be sure to do some testing of applying it to a vertical surface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Fry View Post
I will definitely try both procedures on test material first, but I am thinking that #2 will probably be the best way for me to do this.
#2 is a more traditional schedule. However, #1 will come out looking more like the original stock while still pretty effectively shielding the stock from light. If you do test it, just for your own use make a test piece with no color, just the epoxy. It's a neat look, for a customer more willing to "let wood be wood".

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Fry View Post
You said..."Most anything oil-based is compatible with lacquer, if allowed to cure fully." ...Does this include urethane based products too?
There are two concerns in overcoating polyurethane products with lacquer. If the urethane is too fresh, the hot lacquer thinner can lift it. This of course is quite a disaster, only avoidable by ensuring a full cure before overcoating. The second is that the lacquer doesn't adhere to the poly. This is avoidable by either abrading the poly, or preferably by using a shellac or vinyl tie coat. If you're in control of the full schedule, avoiding polys if they'll have to be topped with lacquer is safer.
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Old Posted 09-06-2008, 01:51 AM in reply to Dave Arbuckle's post starting "Yes. These thin epoxies apply very much..."
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Thank you Dave,

You've given me some great guidance. Even if I don't get this commission, I'm going to play with epoxy as a finish.
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